You forget to put up the lobbiest dollars unions give Dem's. Compare that to oil contributions to Rep's. Scary.

I don't see how supporting unions is anti-business socialism. Socialism is government ownership of business, and that's not generally considered a union goal. As to anti-business, well, a union is pitting its economic strength against a business in order to get more money (wages, benefits). But so do suppliers and buyers. They often hash out tough deals with a business. That's what the market is all about. Is Walmart anti-business? They sure drive hard bargains with manufacturers.

Encyclopedia Brittanica defines socialism as:

system of social organization in which property and the distribution of income are subject to social control rather than individual determination or market forces.

Unions are about redistributing wealth and are consistently using government means to do so. They don't just negotiate with businesses such as you example--Walmart does. They have progressively legislated things like the minimum wage and most recently, the anti-Walmart health insurance act in Maryland. Their goal is to unionize Walmart, force Walmart to make involuntary contributions above and beyond what the market dictates to worker health care, or put them out of business in Maryland.

Union endorsement of political candidates demonstrates that the candidate is a supporter of the extensive agenda and system of forcing unfair contracts and conditions on employers and manufacturers. They do not hash our difficuly deals with business, they use government to force things upon the business. Businesses should be free to hire and fire whoever they want, but union rules set up systems that do not allow this.

Having been around unions a bit in the political arena, in places like Minnesota, it's clear that most of these people are just angry Marxists.

Perhaps unions have gone too far. I suspect our system of checks and balances will reign them back in. But, can you imagine how much poorer our way of life in this country would be without the union movement of 20th century. Seriously folks, there'd be no middle class just very rich and very poor. Why ,in a free market economy , is it Marxist to expect to negotiate the highest price for your labor.

Dex,

Why is union membership at an all-time low? Unions are not just about negotiating a higher price for labor. They are a political machine for the selling of mass quantities of votes in elections. Unions have been involved in all kinds of scams throughout our history too.

I don't buy the argument that there would be no middle class if not for unions. Unions are not responsible for most white collar jobs in this country. Most white collar positions are non-union. And most white collar jobs are the higher paying jobs.

Unions may have had A PLACE in our history and it is true that some businesses in the late 1800's were not wonderful employers, but unions were not wonderful either. Many of the problems of that era were related to immigration problems and it was primarily immigrants that had the low pay and horrible conditions.

What is happening to the "middle class" union worker now days? Those union contracts are worthless because the unions bankrupted companies with benefits and pension plans that are not sustainable. How does that help the "middle class"?

As I said Justin unions have gone too far, but I think you are naive to think that those white collar jobs would be "high paying" without the reforms facilitated by unions. Maybe all the scrooges would have been visited by 3 ghosts but I doubt it.

So which part do we disagree on? That Unions at one time were necessary during the early industrial revolution or that Unions border on irrelevant and quite frankly hurtful to today's business world?

Unions used to be about the middle class and middle America. Representing the interests of American workers. Now, their members are watching their jobs being outsourced at a higher rate than most and the companies they have held hostage are going bankrupt and leaving Union members without pensions, healthcare, jobs, savings...

So we blame greedy corporate executives for sending the jobs overseas or filing Chapter 11 and cancelling the Union deal. Locking out grocery store employees in California. Fact is that Unions are not helping their workers. Add in their support for the far left wing social policies like Gay Marriage, Abortion on Demand, etc., and the Unions have lost touch with their members. Just like the Democrats have lost touch with these same people.

Unions are not about what is best for their members anymore. They are simply a tool of the big money Democratic Party vote machine. They are vote brokers. And occasional extortionists to the companies they negotiate with.

They have outlived their purpose. By about 50 years.

Justin I will throw in the towel on that note, but as a big brown union member myself, I would hate to think I had to go back to work Monday without their representation. I may be stabbing myself in the back but I have never endorsed the union slate and have never voted for a democratic presidential candidate. Which came first the chicken or the egg? I suspect brown would have been more comfortable to don had it never been unionized but I have to live in the here and now.

As a sidenote though Justin, I do appreciate the mature discussion on the subject. I would like to say one more thing on the subject and this may be largely a regional issue. My obversations have been that most industrial jobs that have migrated south are the low paying textile type jobs. Talk about greed, they weren't paying a livable wage to begin with.