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Willisms

« Betel Nut 'Beauty' In The Eye Of The Beholder | WILLisms.com | Wednesday Caption Contest: Part 108 »

Fun False Quotes From The Liberals

In his new book The Assault On Reason, Al Gore claims this quote as coming from Lincoln:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

As Andrew Ferguson notes, the quote is a little 'too perfect', fitting as it does into the anti-capitalist notions of the left like a dovetail joint. The quote shows up nowhere in The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln.

Another false favorite from the lefties is this, attributed to Thomas Jefferson: "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Jim Lindgren at Volokh Conspiracy did some research, and found that this quote originated from Dorothy Hewitt Hutchinson, a pacifist so addled that she opposed participation in World War II. The connection with Jefferson apparently started with ACLU president Nadine Strossen in 1991, thus giving rise to a small liberal myth.

Here is a famous example of a false liberal quote, from Barbara Streisand, attributing it to William Shakespeare:

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

This does not sound remotely like anything Shakespeare wrote, but nevermind, it sounded great to Babs, and suited her purposes.

I suppose this can teach us a few things about how liberals think. Truth and reality are not really that important you see, and if it sounds good, it must be true. We learned from Rathergate the importance of claims that are false, but accurate!, which is perfectly legitimate because, after all, Truth is relative.

The most important liberal 'truth' of all, however, is never admit you aren't as smart as you'd like to appear (especially true in Al Gore's case).

Posted by Ken McCracken · 10 June 2007 04:50 PM

Comments

Al Gore is such a dud! Baba is so sickening! Really, they both need help... I look forward to the day when Al Gore gets socked in the face. OR Baba S. gets socked in her big schnoz! Sorry! I got carried away there for a moment!

Posted by: zsa zsa at June 10, 2007 08:56 PM

The only thing "learned" from Rathergate was that if you tell a big, attractive seeming lie, you can count on the right wing blogosphere to promote it, the mainstream corporate media to not investigate it, and the general public to be utterly suckered in by it. The forgery "hypothesis" had major issues from the instant "Buckhead" made his post on the Free Republic, namely in that every single technical assertion of his was wrong -- there was actually a vibrant word processing market by 1972 with plenty of machines capable of proportional spacing in different fonts and with features like automatic centering. Charles Johnson's cute little overlay animation of one of the memos posted on his Little Green Footballs blog site was seen by many as hard proof of forgery -- except that the overlay trick fails with the other three memos. Plus one of two additional memos CBS had but didn't use contained info that any would be forger could have only gleemed from analyzing Bush's flight records -- except that those flight records had only been belatedly released by the Pentagon a couple of days after CBS had obtained the memos.



What, you didn't know any of this? I'm sure it was only a media oversight what with all these famous blondes getting into trouble and whatnot. Plus it's a complicated story and media marketing people know that Americans hate complicated stories and will instantly switch channels or mouse click away from anything that isn't fun, outrageous, sexy, comforting, confrontational and/or so simple that a 5th grader can understand it.

Posted by: BC at June 11, 2007 07:08 AM

Its over, Rather already admitted they were fake.

Fake but accurate. You fit right in!

Posted by: k2aggie07 at June 11, 2007 07:55 AM

Heck of an effort, BC.

I give you a score of 6.9. You failed in the originality department.

Posted by: Hoodlumman at June 11, 2007 08:00 AM

ZZ,
These people do seem to react viscerally when it comes to George Bush or anyone who does not agree with their "bumper sticker" mentality.

They can not defend their bow-legged stances on political issues with a debate of the issues, they prefer made-up character flaws in their opposition, metaphorically equated to a moment in history. They really don't want to address some of their current leaders lack of character in their present day leadership.

The democrats are good at this, the best defense is a good offense, and they are highly offensive.

BC,
I have been in the Electronics/Computer business going into my fifth decade now,(I am an older fart) and you are just wrong, supporting bad documents with questionable technical unaccountability, tendered by a questionable character with ties to Rather's daughter in Texas.
Nice try, but declaring a person guilty because you do not like them and then supporting your position with false statements goes to KMc post here.

Posted by: Eneils Bailey at June 11, 2007 08:22 AM

William Jefferson could be on this list! Do you think when his house got raided that the cops said FREEZE??? Ha!

Posted by: zsa zsa at June 11, 2007 11:32 AM

These guys are good, the democrats, that is.

William Jefferson can be given some clap for his attempt to support and defend the minorities of New Orleans. After all, I have to have some federal agency tell me when to hop off the tracks when the Amtrak is only yards away from smashing me.

Ignorance is bliss, injury and loss becomes a federal mandate, and William Jefferson is your savior.

Posted by: eneils Bailey at June 11, 2007 12:24 PM

BC, get up to date. The technical issues about word processing were run through the blogosphere in the first 48 hours: possible/not-possible, likely/not likely. All the objections to Buckhead were answered quickly and multiply from a variety of sources.

It's a dead giveaway when you refer to "corporate" media, as if they would clearly favor and protect Bush, BTW. Being unable to contain your sneering insults is also pretty revealing. Make your logical arguments and leave out the condescension, then see if you can play on this field.

I have noted before that sneering and condescension seems to work better on progressives, who have adopted their views for social rather than intellectual reasons. Thus, that is what they use on others, thinking that we also will be shamed into being among those lofty folk who "get it." Conservatives are not above this failing, of course, but it has run pretty strongly on the left for the decades of my adulthood, anyway.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 11, 2007 12:47 PM

One of my favorites was the famous Bill Clinton quote. " I did not have sex with that woman " Bill Clinton lied so much when he was President it is hard to pinpoint all the special things he said.

Posted by: zsa zsa at June 11, 2007 01:52 PM

The Lincoln quote is accurate.

The patriotism quote may not be Jefferson's, but it's certainly one he would have agreed with. Eisenhower would have as well.

Posted by: Jadegold at June 11, 2007 02:05 PM

The technical issues about word processing were run through the blogosphere in the first 48 hours: possible/not-possible, likely/not likely. All the objections to Buckhead were answered quickly and multiply from a variety of sources.

This is inaccurate.

The RWers voiced a number of conspiracy theories--almost all of them false. Anyone remember the claim that Times New Roman font wasn't invented until the 1970s? The fact remains 99% of the claims made by the usual suspects were both baseless and wrong.

Moreover, we have contemporaneous witness testimony that the substance of the memos were accurate. This is what the rightwingers won't address.

Anyhoo, how embarrassed must Andrew Ferguson be?

Posted by: Jadegold at June 11, 2007 02:16 PM

EB...I think they have been watching too many Michael Moore movies.

Posted by: zsa zsa at June 11, 2007 03:17 PM

Wrong again, Jadegold -

The Lincoln quote is a fake.

Nice try, and thanks for playing!

Posted by: Ken McCracken at June 11, 2007 03:19 PM

jadegold - I recall having this discussion in another place and reading that the Lincoln quote was indeed accurate. I followed it up at snopes.com, which claims it is a forgery. I am no expert on such things, but the source you link to is exactly the one that snopes identifies as inaccurate. I suggest you take up the matter with them.

Mind-reading that Jefferson and Eisenhower would agree with a quote is simply not persuasive.

As to Rathergate, the mildly left-leaning Wikipedia entry contradicts your claim in all particulars. The exact matchup with the default Microsoft settings is particularly telling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathergate

I would caution you on this last topic that when the documents were challenged by the rightwing blogs, legitimate questions were raised, and not only from the left. However those questions were summarily answered. Claim - challenge - counterclaim - rechallenge - that's how these things work. One cannot simply cut off at a convenient place after the data is in.

As to the idea that the underlying accusation was always the main point, which the Bush supporters refuse to answer, I would suggest that none of us wishes to live in such a world. If someone claims to have a video of you molesting children which upon examination turns out to be a "Finding Nemo" DVD, you should feel no obligation to defend yourself further. People who wish to revisit the subject should not be attended to unless they provide new evidence. Rumors abound about all our political figures. Some may be true but elude documentary proof forever. You may entertain whatever private suspicions you wish, but should not make assertions without evidence.

The irony of course is that the presidential candidate who made a big deal about the quality of his service in that era was caught out and removed some claims from his official bio. Many of his other claims were undermined as well. In the conflicting testimony, little of which can ever be supported by documentary testimony at this point, the weight is against Kerry. I would not, however, make a bald assertion that his claims are untrue. There is evidence, but no proof of such.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 11, 2007 03:41 PM

jadegold - I recall having this discussion in another place and reading that the Lincoln quote was indeed accurate. I followed it up at snopes.com, which claims it is a forgery. I am no expert on such things, but the source you link to is exactly the one that snopes identifies as inaccurate.

I remain unconvinced either way. However, let's play Devil's Advocate and assume the quote is bogus. How is this a bad reflection on Gore? The fact is he referenced where the quote came from and certainly there is plenty of disagreement as to its authenticity.

Mind-reading that Jefferson and Eisenhower would agree with a quote is simply not persuasive.

Really? So when Jefferson writes "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all."--he isn't placing a value on dissent?

How Stalinistic.

I would caution you on this last topic that when the documents were challenged by the rightwing blogs, legitimate questions were raised,

Again, the fact is the RWers were 99% wrong. Essentially, they threw up a wall of crap to see if anything stuck. That Young Master Bush failed to fulfill his Guard obligation is beyond dispute. And the fact is Young Master Bush's own autobiography contains significant lies about his service.

Thius is a fairly typical RW tactic; deny, deny and then point out some small error and claim victory.

Posted by: Jadegold at June 11, 2007 05:57 PM

I can't believe that anyone is still attempting to claim that the Rathergate fake documents really were real. That's one stupid, petty delusion to cling to.

The hilarious thing is, all the so-clever minds behind this stupid human trick had to do for the truth of the matter to remain forever in dispute would have been to pick up an old manual typewriter (which were still in widespread use in the early seventies -- the typing class I took in junior high used manuals) at a garage sale or a thrift shop and type the memo up on a piece of old paper using an old ribbon. But they couldn't even figure out how to do that.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at June 11, 2007 08:41 PM

"Disagreement as to its authenticity" for Gore's quote would be valueless. I have raised teenagers; just because someone wants to debate something doesn't mean it's debatable. That was also a nifty switch on your part, saying "okay, even if it's bogus, it's still okay to use because it's not really bogus."

Jefferson placing "a value" on dissent is not the same thing as calling it the highest form of patriotism. That is a false equivalence.

What has been remarkable about America is not dissent, but the tolerance of it. There has always been dissent from government, which is why so many kept getting overthrown.

As to the RW blogosphere being 99% wrong on Rathergate, read the article. If you disagree, take it up with them.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 11, 2007 09:35 PM

How Stalinistic.

Jadegold likes this sort of rhetoric. It makes them feel as if they're above all us fascist types.

Posted by: k2aggie07 at June 11, 2007 11:02 PM

k2, it is always tempting to reach for that conclusion with individuals, as it is so clearly true in a general way for progressives. As with any individual, however, I don't know what motivates jadegold except for what I can intuit from what he actually writes.

I would consider your interpretation to be evidenced, but not certain, on the basis of jadegold's comments here.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 12, 2007 07:33 AM

Andrea Harris aptly demonstrates the typical lies of the RW. She maintains the documents were produced by some word processing vice a typewriter. In point of fact, that has never been conclusively determined.

Obviously Ms Harris is laboring under the old RW chestnut that an overlay of the documents in question closely matched the same documents produced by MS Word. Ergo, the documents could not have been produced by a typewriter. Of course, this ignores the fact MS Word was developed to produce documents that were identical to those produced by the IBM Selectric.

How Stalinistic.

Having recently finished Beevor's Stalingrad, it's chilling to compare Stalin's tactics (WRT Red Army officer purges) with the tactics employed by today's RW.

Posted by: Jadegold at June 12, 2007 09:07 AM

Jadegold--do you mean that RW's are imprisoning people, and murdering them?

Posted by: Mike James at June 12, 2007 11:41 AM

Yes, obviously many conservatives are being shot for being insufficiently enthusiastic. I had to purge a couple myself when they failed to adhere to the daily directives handed down from our Glorious Leader.

jadegold, you're usually more amusing than this.

Posted by: Chris at June 12, 2007 11:49 AM

Man, this is what I get for following one of Andrea's links.

I'd forgotten all about Jadegold's existence, and now I have to remember.

Thanks, Andrea.

Jade: PS. Who's the "RW" had summarily executed following a show trial and a coerced confession? After not allowing them to even speak in their own defense?

Nobody?

Yeah, that's just chilling, ain't it.

Those of us who've read The Gulag Archipelago aren't falling for your disgusting attempt to cheapen the crimes of Communism and tar your political opponents by pretending they're even similar.

(And "credible eyewitness testimony"? You mean one typist, was it?

Compared to... everyone else's statements and the recorded facts about how TANG service worked in the early 70s?

Which "conspiracy theories" do you demand "the RW" answer for?

Would you accept a similar demand for everything posted on DU or Kos, for "the LW"?

The serious people making serious points, I notice you have no answer to, and they're the only ones that matter on either side.)

Posted by: Sigivald at June 12, 2007 12:37 PM

Well go ahead and try then, jadegold, to produce that document on an IBM Selectric circa 1970 manufacture. You would be the first, however.

But more importantly, what is the actual evidence that would make anyone look any further? To retreat to the premise that "this might conceivably have happened" (it didn't, but grant it for the moment) is to leave the question of whether it actually did happen unaddressed.

I'm still curious why Kerry won't release his military records and why Clinton won't release his medical records, but curiosity is not accusation. In the case of Kerry, the records became pertinent because live witnesses offered claims in contradiction to his. As far as I know, no one has offered competing testimony about Clinton's medical history, so there is no pressure to bring it up.

All the accusations to date about Bush's TANG career have been bogus. If something shows up that has some meat to it, then all questions about superscripts and document experts might come back into play. Until then, what might conceivably have happened is irrelevant.

If you've read this far, you might want to have a go at answering my other objections above, rather than just the ones you think you might be able to answer.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 12, 2007 12:58 PM

Well go ahead and try then, jadegold, to produce that document on an IBM Selectric circa 1970 manufacture. You would be the first, however.

Done.

But more importantly, what is the actual evidence that would make anyone look any further? To retreat to the premise that "this might conceivably have happened" (it didn't, but grant it for the moment) is to leave the question of whether it actually did happen unaddressed.

Still missing the point and deliberately so. As Dan Rather noted, he and his crew were remiss in failing to better ascertain the provenance of the documents. OTOH, the vast majority of the "evidence" produced by the RW was wrong. Why is it wrong for Rather to produce evidence that is dodgy but technically accurate while the RW gets to provide evidence that is both nonsensical and technically inaccurate?

I'm still curious why Kerry won't release his military records

You're curious because you're not very well informed. Many dunces do wander about in a perpetual state of befuddlement.

All the accusations to date about Bush's TANG career have been bogus.

You're still befuddled.

I'd invite you to read Young Master Bush's autobiography, A Charge to Keep--paying particular attention to Young Master Bush's accounts of his TANG service. If you do, you will see glaring lies.


Posted by: Jadegold at June 12, 2007 01:16 PM

Of course, this ignores the fact MS Word was developed to produce documents that were identical to those produced by the IBM Selectric.
A statement that could only have been made by someone who has never used an IBM Selectric. The probability of using a proportional font to produce a battalion-level memorandum prior to the early 1980s in an active duty unit in Europe was zero. The probability of it to have happened in a National Guard battalion in 1972 is also zero.

Posted by: Mark A. Flacy at June 12, 2007 02:40 PM

I give jadegold credit for upping his game in response to strong challenge. It still doesn't meet, however.

Kerry military. We keep getting these promises, but something always goes wrong. They are still not released.

The document is close, but there are two difficulties. One, the the superscript capabilities are an add-on, seldom used and with no other examples from that office of their having been used. Two, even with that caveat, the documents in overlay do not quite match up as prettily as the others. Close. Clearly the font is meant to match the IBM Selectric. But not quite there.

You still might want to have a go at my other objections, rather than simply trying to be creative in your insults.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 12, 2007 05:54 PM

"Of course, this ignores the fact MS Word was developed to produce documents that were identical to those produced by the IBM Selectric."

My God, you're an idiot. That's awesome -- for the first time in my life I wish I could do needlepoint, so I could put this in a sampler: "MS Word was developed to produce documents that were identical to those produced by the IBM Selectric."

No actually, they deserve a public sign of some sort. A billboard over a major highway. Or a blinking neon sign.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at June 12, 2007 06:27 PM

Andrea: there are medications to deal with your afflictions; perhaps you're using them. Here is an article explaining the facts to you. Excerpt:

When Microsoft produced its version of Times New Roman, licensed from Monotype, in TrueType format, and when Apple produced its version of Times Roman, licensed from Linotype, in TrueType format, the subtle competition took on a new aspect, because both Microsoft and Apple expended a great deal of time and effort to make the TrueType versions as good as, or better than, the PostScript version. During the same period, Adobe released ATM along with upgraded versions of its core set of fonts, for improved rasterization on screen. Also, firms like Imagen, now part of QMS, and Sun developed rival font scaling technologies, and labored to make sure that their renderings of Times, licensed from Linotype in both cases, were equal to those of their competitors. Hence, the perceived quality of the Times design became a litmus for the quality of several font formats. Never before, and probably never again, would the precise placement of pixels in the serifs or 's' curves etc. of Times Roman occupy the attention of so many engineers and computer scientists. It was perhaps the supreme era of the Digital Fontologist.

It's indeed fortunate you don't needlepoint; mentally ill people should limit their access to sharp objects.

Kerry military. We keep getting these promises, but something always goes wrong. They are still not released.

Let's see: he's signed off on an SF-180 which allows anyone to look at any and all military records (something Young Master Bush has not done). Second, we know the US Navy has conducted an investigation into his service and awards. Their verdict: everything kosher.


Posted by: Jadegold at June 12, 2007 06:52 PM

John Kerry ran a shell game with his SF-180. He signed authorizing his biographer to see them. There are 100+ pages still not public.
http://caosblog.com/category/jean-francois-kerrie/

Bush signed his in 2004.

I imagine you mean well, jadegold, and are a decent fellow. When it hits that these guys have snookered you, you're going to be one p-o'd lib.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 13, 2007 07:55 AM

Caosblog is your cite, AVI?

That's funny. Isn't she still supporting Jack Idema? I would note RW racist Michelle Malkin says Kerry signed his SF-180.

To date, Bush has not.

It's pretty clear you've never served, AVI. I'd just relate that you're the one being snookered.

How else do you reconcile Bush's autobiography stated that he "flew with [his] unit" until going off to HBS? The fact is Bush had his flight status suspended and was ineligible to pilot any military aircraft.

Now, contrast that to a man who volunteered for what was perhaps the most dangerous duty someone in the USN could volunteer for at that time. 3 PHs, a bronze and silver star.

But seeing as you've never served in the military, you can easily be fooled into believing an O-2 could so manipulate the entire Navy into giving him 3 PHs and two of this nation's highest combat awards.


Posted by: Jadegold at June 13, 2007 11:01 AM

Asst. Vil. Id.,

I disagree with your assessment that Jadegold means well. He certainly isn't decent; decent people don't resort to ad hominem attacks. However, that is a standard leftist tactic.

At least he's a fairly intelligent troll* and provides us with amusement--and, more importantly, an insight into liberals' and leftists' mindsets.

*Not ad hominem, but a description of his behavior.

Posted by: Nathan Hale at June 13, 2007 12:35 PM

Kerry signed, but in a tricky manner to block actual release, as I noted above.

I took that site from a google to use the most recent update, in case some info of Kerry's had been released in the last year while I wasn't looking. I could have chosen any of dozens of earlier references. Kerry promised to Tim Russert. Months later he signed, authorizing specific people at the LATimes and Boston Globe to see the record. Whatever they saw has not been made public. As in your previous comments on this thread, you have not answered my objections, but only introduced new accusations.


A little metacommunication here. If you are going to argue by throwing in phrases such as "RW racist" I will simply discontinue writing, as I have before. I respond to you only when you are semi-reasonable. Similarly, my military service is irrelevent. There were a considerable number of people who not only served in the military, but served in Kerry's branch, at the same time, and in the same theater who believed he had manipulated the system. If you believe they are nonetheless wrong, you should attempt a point-by-point refutation of what they have actually said and written, not a mere dismissal and change of subject.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 13, 2007 12:36 PM

Your military service is relevant because you are making claims that are ridiculous from a military perspective. You keep asserting that a man who volunteered for hazardous duty and won numerous awards somehow 'gamed' the entire Navy as a LTJG.

That, on it's face, is ludicrous.And people in the military, or with a military background, understand this. As an O-6 once told me, he spent most of his time as an O-2 trying to figure where he had to be and when. The idea of an O-2 manipulating 3 PHs and a BS/SS is unbelievable.

Further, Michelle Malkin is a RW racist. Sorry, but someone who writes an entire book on the subject that it was a good thing to inter US citizens for no other reason but their race--is a racist.

Your cite at CaosBlog is likewise ludicrous. This is a person who devotes a good deal of time defending Jack Idema--someone we have locked up for deciding to conduct his own private war in Iraq.

The facts are militating against you, AVI. You have no military experience, you cite whackos such as CaosBlog, and now you get touchy about Malkin's racism?

Posted by: Jadegold at June 13, 2007 12:57 PM

We can now add the 'chickenhawk' meme to Jadegold's intellectual debating tools, along with his favorites, ad hominem, non sequitur, and the entire debate sidestepping: "you're racist."

Jadegold: teh smrtest man in the intertube thread.

Posted by: Hoodlumman at June 13, 2007 01:29 PM

No, Hoodlum, "chickenhawk" is used in another context altogether.

"Chickenhawk" is used in the context of describing one who strongly advocates war but is unwilling to serve ('though capable of doing so) *and* the belief their actions (usually pounding a keyboard) are integral to the overall war effort.

In this case, AVI isn't a chickenhawk. He's merely ignorant of the military.

Posted by: Jadegold at June 13, 2007 01:49 PM

How do you write off those that served with Kerry that dismiss his claims as outright lies then?

Posted by: k2aggie07 at June 13, 2007 04:41 PM

Silly. Done.

Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at June 13, 2007 05:00 PM

When a liberal or leftist invokes the Great Holy Word of Damnation racist, they are condemning the object of their scorn to non-person status. Since "racists" are non-persons, their opinions are not worthy of consideration.

It's another way that liberals and leftists have of avoiding issues and escaping reality.

The fact of the matter is that race is real, and it has very real effects on who people are and how they behave (statistically speaking, at the very least). But for most libs/lefties, even this mild recognition of reality is "racist."

Incidentally, those on the left end of the political scale often utter this incantation when they're losing an argument.

Posted by: Nathan Hale at June 13, 2007 06:17 PM

How do you write off those that served with Kerry that dismiss his claims as outright lies then?

Name one.

Posted by: Jadegold at June 13, 2007 08:43 PM

Here is an article explaining the facts to you.
That article has nothing to do with your moronic assertion that "Of course, this ignores the fact MS Word was developed to produce documents that were identical to those produced by the IBM Selectric."

No wonder you're confused.

Posted by: Mark A. Flacy at June 14, 2007 04:23 AM

One? They have a freaking website -- both officers that served with him, and his commanders. http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php

But I'll humor you, so you can show me why these guy's opinions don't count.
Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)
Joseph Ponder
Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)
William Shumadine
Steven Gardner

Posted by: k2aggie07 at June 14, 2007 08:49 AM

k2aggie07:

I know Plumly, so I'll start with him. Plumly was ostensibly Kerry's CO for about a day. During this time, Kerry was off conducting missions--while Plumly was ashore. What CO is going to form a poor opinion of a subordinate with less than an hour's time?

Ponder: Never served with Kerry.

Hibbard: Here's how he described Kerry:"One of the top few in his willingness to seek and accept responsibility."

Shumadine: Never served with Kerry.

Gardner: Admits he didn't serve with Kerry during actions resulting in decorations

Posted by: Jadegold at June 14, 2007 12:19 PM

While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.

-Cmdr Grant Hibbard

"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?" - Steven Gardner

Why do we take Kerry's word "as a veteran" but not Hibbard's or Gardner's?

Posted by: k2aggie07 at June 14, 2007 02:41 PM

Because Hibbard's later words conflict with what he officially told the USN. If he had a problem with Kerry and a PH, he should have come forward at the time. Not wait nearly 4 decades.

How do we reconcile Hibbard's earlier words? Was he lying then or now?

Gardner is simply not credible; he's claimed to have witnessed things when it was impossible for him to have been there. He recants and changes his story based on the audience.

Posted by: Jadegold at June 14, 2007 03:08 PM

Andrea: there are medications to deal with your afflictions; perhaps you're using them.

"You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!"

(Not to mention that paragraph jadegold copied and pasted said nothing about MS Word being created in order to "produce documents that were identical to those produced by the IBM Selectric" but, well, you know -- "TrueType" "typewriter," to-may-to, to-mah-to....

Posted by: Andrea Harris at June 14, 2007 09:14 PM

Apparently JadeGold hopes to get John Kerry elected president in 2004.

Posted by: McGehee at June 14, 2007 09:14 PM

Andrea: Up the meds; you're getting hysterical. As my reference makes abundantly plain, MS-Word and Apple and every other computer-based wordprocessing package was competing with what was their chief competitor at the time--IBM.

McGehee: I see you've dropped several IQ points you never had.

Posted by: Jadegold at June 15, 2007 10:36 AM

"McGehee: I see you've dropped several IQ points you never had."

Aiieeee! I've been skewered by your invincible wit!

Posted by: McGehee at June 15, 2007 12:21 PM

Anybody, and I mean anybody, over the age of 40 who took one look at Dan Rather's documents immediately knew that the documents were fake. Selectric Composer typewriters simply weren't broadly available, in that you could expect to walk into a random office and find one. And even if a National Guard Captain had access to one, he sure as hell wouldn't spend an hour or two composing a 'CYA memo' on one when he could spend 5-10 minutes producing the memo on a normal Selectric (monospaced).

And Dan Rather, of all people, should have known that.

Go to the government archives of the time and look at the memos produced. Every single one is monospaced. Every single one.

Posted by: Eric at June 16, 2007 07:38 PM