The "Palestinians"* want peace, but they want to achieve it by killing the Jews. As long as even one Jew has political authority over even one square inch of the Middle East, peace will be impossible.

The liberals incessantly intone, "can't we all just get along?" The answer is "no"--because some groups don't want to get along.

*Until the 1970s, they were referred to by their correct name: Arab refugees. Any Arab nation could have solved the refugee problem by simply letting them in. However, that would have taken away a powerful weapon to hammer Israel with--and why would they want to do that?

I think the word "Peace" looses something in the translation somehow to Palestinian's.

Well, the Mexican-Lover-in-Chief, Jorge W Busheron, and other people totally ignorant of Islam have been lying to us for the past 5.5 years, telling us that Islam is the "Religion of Peace™." What a crock of bull! Islam does not mean "peace"; it means "submission."

So if the Moslems can force the Jews into submission, there will be "peace"--at least until the Moslems go after each other again.

I predict that would take about 0.003 seconds after the last Jew "submitted."

Who is going to miss Fatah? I certainly won't

The truth hurts, Ken. I guess the Repugs are finding out the hard way that foreign policy can't be reduced to a bumpersticker slogan and the world is actually a complicated place.

Let's remember: it was the US who demanded the Palestinians hold elections. The Bushies thought this would be a great idea to marginalize or get rid of Fatah. Of course, the Bushies--in their supreme ignorance--failed to understand Hamas was easily the most popular faction in Palestine. So, when Hamas won an election which Young Master Bush had demanded--the Bushies promptly cut off aid.

Of course, this was heaping failure upon failure. Hamas now paid the bills and kept basic social services going, driving more people toward Hamas and away from US interests.

Again, this is just another catastrophe brought to you by the folks who brought you Katrina.

And dinosaur extinction, Jade.

You can't finish a good "It's Dubya's fault" rant without blaming him for dinosaur extinction, too.

Someone call a waaahhbulance for Hoodlum. JG's criticizing Dear Leader; must quickly invoke reductio ad absurdum stat!

The fact is the ascendancy of Hamas to power in Palestine occured on Young Master Bush's watch. He achieved this all by his lonesome.

Let's remember Bush spent $500M of your money and mine to try to prop up Abbas and Fatah. Then it demanded--against Israel's specific objections--that Abbas hold immediate elections.

True to form, Young Master Bush's 'strategery' failed spectacularly.

Jadegold, you do realize that a non-occupied, free-election holding state represents a sovereign entity? This gives Israel plenty more of a "leg to stand on" for casus belli against "Palestine" now that she has become sensitive to world opinion.

And I really wouldn't get into who-spent-what-where when it comes to foreign aid. We could just start talking about Edward's "Marshall Force" idea and it would get ugly.

Again, this is just another catastrophe brought to you by the folks who brought you Katrina.
Ah yes, the insidious hurricane machine, cranked by Cheney's innocent-blood fed evil strength.

Jadegold, you do realize that a non-occupied, free-election holding state represents a sovereign entity? This gives Israel plenty more of a "leg to stand on" for casus belli against "Palestine" now that she has become sensitive to world opinion.

Sooo, you're trying to argue an outright war between the Israelis and the Palestinians is desirable?

What militates against this theory is the Fact Israel didn't want the Palestinians to hold elections; they understood what Young Master Bush did not.

And I really wouldn't get into who-spent-what-where when it comes to foreign aid. We could just start talking about Edward's "Marshall Force" idea and it would get ugly.

I doubt it would get ugly. Edward's Marchall Corps proposal is just that--a proposal. Young Master Bush has squandered a half billion dollars and Palestine is now under Hamas leadership--that's reality.

Ah yes, the insidious hurricane machine, cranked by Cheney's innocent-blood fed evil strength

Ah yes, we have another Michael Brown fan in the audience.

I'm afraid I don't even know who that is. But I can say this - if Israel didn't expect this eventuality resulting directly from their pullout of Gaza, they're far dumber than you're making Bush out to be.

I also, incidentally, never supported sending money to Fatah, Hamas, or any other militant organization. The only reason we give money to any representative of the illegitimate nation that is Palestine is due to pressure from left-leaning weenies. Clinton was particularly good at the ineffectual diplomatic solution to this non-diplomatic problem.

And yes, I think an outright war is not only desirable but ongoing. What else do you call it when the leading government party endorses firing rockets aimed for the civilian population? These are acts of war. Palestine exists at Israel's discretion, and they are reaping the results of their foolish decisions after the 6 days' war -- similar to our harvesting of Desert Storm, or not letting Patton or MacArthur continue into the communists, or for Wilson's strangling of Germany after WWI. It happens, but the importance is in how you react once you learn from these mistakes.

K2: I fear you don't understand the Middle East situation very well if you believe 'Israel didn't expect this eventuality resulting directly from their pullout of Gaza.'

Israel was wasting a lot of blood and resources protecting 9,000 Israeli citizens who settled in Gaza for symbolic reasons.

What else do you call it when the leading government party endorses firing rockets aimed for the civilian population?

You mean like Israel does?

Palestine exists at Israel's discretion,

Not a really smart way to think. To be sure, Israel could wipe Palestine off the map tomorrow but the cost to Israel would be enormous--possibly resulting in the destruction of Israel as well. At the very least, Israel would lose just about all the world's support--possibly even the US's. At the worst, it could trigger a war where the Arab nations would unite in war against Israel. In that scenario, even if Israel were to prevail--it'd be a Pyrrhic victory.

At the worst, it could trigger a war where the Arab nations would unite in war against Israel.
Where, oh where, have we heard this before?

So tell me this jadegold. Do you believe or support the idea that all men were created inherently free by God?

If so, how can you blame Bush for essentially guaranteeing these people a chance at freedom? Also, as a "mature" and reasoning adult, how can you excuse their choice made under no duress to become a terrorist state?

If you support freedom and believe in accountability and responsibility for actions, how can you blame anyone but the terrorist-supporting "Palestinians"?

Where, oh where, have we heard this before?

It ain't 1967. And the protagonists wouldn't be just Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Think about Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, for starters.

If so, how can you blame Bush for essentially guaranteeing these people a chance at freedom?

He didn't. From the Palestinian point of view, they were wronged and Bush was telling them they should shut up and sit down.

If you support freedom and believe in accountability and responsibility for actions, how can you blame anyone but the terrorist-supporting "Palestinians"?

Look up Irgun, King David Hotel, Menachem Begin before you talk about terrorist-supporting.

Time out. We've played this before. Jadegold dances around with childish insults, and tangential incidents, not answering the main points.

State neutrally what Ken's premise in the OP is, jadegold. Until you have done that, you are not eligible for honest discussion. That's not a requirement we should have to insist on for everyone, but your history makes it necessary. Pony up.

Hurricane Katrina was a force of nature, an act of God.

The failure to prepare for the destruction it might let loose was not the Federal government's fault: it was local government's fault. The stupendously incompentent Ray "Chocolate" Nagin bears primary responsibility for failing to evacuate those who had not left--or have you forgotten about the flooded parking lot filled with unused busses? Louisiana's governor was no better.

The Feds can step in only after disaster strikes. But I guess that fact isn't useful for puerile arguments.

Having said that, there is a grain of useful critique amidst the pile of chaff Jadegold brings to the table: Democracy ain't for everyone. We used to know this. We used to know that you must have an educated electorate and a free press. We used to know that respect for the rule of law is essential. We used to know that the most important prerequisite of all was the willingness of the citizenry to grant civic rights to their fellow men. None of these conditions obtain in any Moslem country. Since none of the conditions obtain, no attempt to foster "democracy" can succeed.

So yes, Jorge W Busheron's foray into the Middle East has been, on the whole, a disaster. This disaster was fueled, in part, by the neocons and their reality-ignoring ideology, and W's adherence to it.

Here's the $64,000 question: would it have been any better had a different course been pursued? Since the Islamic world's problems are of their own making and their own responsibility to fix, the answer is no. Moslems continue to show that they are incapable of living peacefully under anything less than repression.

Islam is inherently incompatible with Western ideals and Western styles of governance. As long as the Arabs remain Moslems, democracy will never flourish in the Middle East (outside of non-Islamic Israel, of course).

AVI is quite the authoritarian martinet, isn't he?

The fact is Young Master Bush, through a combination of incompetence and arrogance, took a bad situation and made it much, much worse.

He did so ignoring the advice of the Israelis and now he is compelled to try and fix it. Of course, his remedy will inevitably make matters still worse.

Pretending this situation just happened because the Palestinians are warmongering subhumans is simply absurd.

Score!

Silly Jadegold! No one has called the "Palestinians" "warmongering subhumans" except you. But as long as you mention it, they are warmongering Moslems. As long as they remain Moslems, they will remain compelled to assault the Jewish state's existence.

Read the Koran and you'll know why: their manual for domination and destruction, the inalterable and direct word of Allah,* commands them to kill the Jews. All their commentaries and the like follow the same line.

*Not to be confused with God. God is compassionate; God is pure reason. One the other hand, Allah is cruel and arbitrary, and ultimately unknowable. Do as I say--or else! is the extent of the "reasoning" in the Koran.

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