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Willisms

« Is The Surge Working, Or Not? | WILLisms.com | Say It's Not So, Mike »

Anti-War Self-Delusion

Why is it that the Republican base was able to rather easily kill the immigration bill - even though the President and a significant number of Republican senators supported it - while the Democratic base is unable to defund or stop the military in Iraq, even though the Democratic leadership is foursquare behind defeat in Iraq?

The Republicans had the numbers, for one thing. Capitol Hill was deluged with outraged calls, killing the switchboards. Republican donors began demanding refunds. The outrage was palpable, and authentic. Democratic 'outrage' against the war, in contrast, is knee-jerk, mechanical, and ho-hum predictable. Moreover, the numbers just aren't there.

Oh sure, there are the polls that claim that 120% of the American people loathe the war and want our troops out yesterday - but the Democrats have been duped by these polls and the tepid anti-war movement proves it. Besides, typical poll questions ask something akin to "do you want our troops to come home?" Hell, I am a huge supporter of the war and I too want our troops to come home. I am sure that if you polled the American people in the depths of World War II if they 'want the troops to come home', the answer would have been hell yes. Another great question is "do you approve of the way the war is being handled?" Well, if we haven't won yet, I guess the answer must be no.

The typical American's views on the war are actually quite complex in ways that cannot be captured by polls, and many seem to adhere to the following points:

  • The war was a mistake to begin with - we didn't know what we were getting in to.
  • The war was oversold, and much of the intelligence was faulty.
  • The war is very expensive in blood and treasure, with no end in sight.

However, a great many Americans also believe the following:

  • Leaving Iraq does not just make the problem of terrorism go away.
  • We have spent too much in blood and treasure to just give up.
  • American prestige will suffer greatly if we cut and run.
  • We have made much progress in Iraq: there is a democratic government and a constitution there, and we now have Sunni allies.
  • We shouldn't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory: while we haven't won yet in Iraq, it is clear that al-Qaeda hasn't won yet either. This war is winnable.

These are not mutually exclusive views. It is possible to hold all of these views without suffering from cognitive dissonance. This view of things is far more nuanced than the typical Democrat defeatists who think, in their deluded way, that they actually have the full support of the American people and have a mandate to end the war. If so . . . where is the clamor to end the war on par with the clamor to end the immigration bill? Live by the polls, die by the polls: the Dems have overrelied on polls and are now paying the price.

Posted by Ken McCracken · 17 July 2007 04:43 PM

Comments

Ken doesn't have his Reynolds-Wrap™ Thinking Cap on.

Here's an article that belies Ken's weird belief that the Repugs "have the numbers."

Ken also seems to forget the immigration bill was put forth by Ken's hero, Young Master Bush.

Posted by: Jadegold at July 17, 2007 06:08 PM

Yet again Jadegold, your reading skills have deserted you.

I didn't make the claim that the Republican establishment and the President 'had the numbers' - I made the claim that it was the Republican base that had the numbers (as in, everyday Republican voters) to defeat the immigration bill despite its support by President Bush and the Republican establishment.

Run along young master Jadegold, you have once again made yourself look like a complete fool.

You have redeemed yourself slightly for the entertainment value, however.

Posted by: Ken McCracken at July 17, 2007 06:31 PM

I made the claim that it was the Republican base that had the numbers (as in, everyday Republican voters) to defeat the immigration bill despite its support by President Bush and the Republican establishment

Again, Ken was undoubtedly in rapturous and idyllic reverie, dreaming of elves and nymphs and David Vitter frolicking in an ethereal underworld as he posted such a comment.

Read the cite. Do you really think the AFL-CIO or the ACLU cares one whit what the Repug base thinks? Do you think 15 Dem Senators care?

If you do, I've got beachfront property in Iowa you might be interested in.

Still another article rebutting Ken "We Have Big Numbers" McC.

Posted by: Jadegold at July 17, 2007 06:47 PM

If you think it failed due to union and ACLU objections alone, you might as well go ahead and buy that Sioux City beachfront property you are touting.

By the way, thanks for helping me make my point. The opposition to the immigration deal was in fact rather bipartisan. Whereas the anti-war movement enjoys virtually no support among Republicans, the immigration bill was opposed by large numbers of Democrats, as you have so helpfully pointed out.

It seems that the movement against the immigration bill is indeed far larger than the anti-war movement - which is precisely the point I was making.

Just curious Jadegold, were you for the bill or against it?

Posted by: Ken McCracken at July 17, 2007 07:26 PM

God what an idiot, how one can even come close to comparing an immigration bill to an war that has come down to one generals viewpoint in September, give me a break. This administration listens to generals when it feels like or when it can be a problem to put off a while longer. I like how you say 120% to say that all polls are outlandish and wrong, typical right wing way of discounting how the population as a whole feels. I like how you write off a majority of our countries population in a whim.
Be sure to quote the sound bites of 'cut and run' what a doozie that one is in oversimplifying what is going on. To say this is a winnable war shows you how naive or downright wrong you can be.

Posted by: Scott at July 17, 2007 07:35 PM

Wow, Scott, your impeccable logic and brilliant analysis have made me reconsider my deeply held beliefs.

I think that Jadegold has a padawan.

Posted by: Chris at July 18, 2007 06:17 AM

Scott is absolutely right.

Young Master Bush says 'listen to the Generals'--yet, he fires any General who isn't toeing the GOP line.

Of course, Ken and his buddies are easily duped. How many times have they fallen for "we're turning the corner?" Must be one biiiig corner.

It seems that the movement against the immigration bill is indeed far larger than the anti-war movement - which is precisely the point I was making.

Geez, Ken. That's probably one of your sillier statements--which is saying something. Bravo.

Immigration is a rather complex issue; people hold many varying views on it, ranging from let anybody and everybody in to build a wall and shoot all illegals--and all points in between. That's why when you see polls concerning immigration, you find polling that is consistent in saying immigration helps more than it hurts. It isn't a 'yes' or 'no' question. Young Master Bush's plan barely failed not because an 'anti-immigration' sentiment prevailed but because factions on both sides found the bill objectionable. For example, the ACLU lobbied against the bill--not because they want to keep immigrants out--but because there were provisions for biometric IDs. Other liberal groups were against the bill because there were weak sanctions against employers who violate the law.

The Repugs opposed it largely on racist grounds.

OTOH, Iraq is very much a 'yes' or no' question.

Posted by: Jadegold at July 18, 2007 02:58 PM

Whereas the anti-war movement enjoys virtually no support among Republicans

Whereas Ken gets gets whacked again:

"Now thinking about the situation in Iraq: From what you've seen or heard in the news, overall, do you think President Bush's 'surge' plan increasing U.S. troops in Iraq has been a success or a failure?" Success Failure Unsure ALL adults 22 64 14 Republicans 47 31 22 Democrats 7 84 9 Independents21 66 13

Instead of "virtually no" support among Repugs, it is more accurate to say a majority of Repugs do not believe the surge is working.

More polling:

But the public is already making an assessment, and it's not good. In the latest CNN-Opinion Research Corporation poll released Tuesday, 69 percent of those polled believe things are going badly in Iraq. Seventeen percent think the situation is improving. (View the latest poll results)

Thirty percent of Americans polled say they favor the war, the lowest level of support on record. Two-thirds are opposed.

Anti-war sentiment among Republican poll respondents has suddenly increased with 38 percent of Republicans now saying they oppose the war.

Moreover, 63 percent of Americans are ready to withdraw at least some troops from Iraq. Forty-two percent of Republicans agree.

Fifty-four percent of Americans do not believe U.S. action in Iraq is morally justified. (Read the complete poll results document -- PDF)


Posted by: Jadegold at July 18, 2007 03:16 PM

The Repugs opposed it largely on racist grounds.

And with that, Jadegold, say adieu to WILLisms.com.

Posted by: Ken McCracken at July 18, 2007 03:21 PM

Back on topic, I notice that every Democrat soundbite about the war in Iraq is actually about Bush, not the war. Sure, it's smart campaigning and I suppose one can't fault politicians for being political at every turn.

On the other hand, it's a war, not an election issue, and actual real people are affected by the outcome. You'd think that might matter.

I would be comforted to hear one comment by a Democrat that did not have obvious electoral implications. Sadly, they are even dropping the disguise of national interest these days.

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