Wow. Most of these people need to take long walks off of short cliffs.

By most of their tripe, doing so would help alleviate that which they rail against. A win-win if I've ever seen one.

Nutcases all

This list has been floating around for about 6 or more years.

Essentially, most of the quotes are taken vastly out of context. That's why you don't see many links for them.

Some quotes are accurate--the Kaarlo Pentti Linkola quote, for instance is accurate. But it should be noted Pentti Linkola is a righwinger who has expressed admiration for both Nazi Germany and countries with large militaries. There is also some indication he may be mentally ill.

Several quotes are secondhand from Elizabeth Whelan, a known paid spokeswoman for the chemical industry.

Two quick comments: First, you might want to check out Victor Navasky's enlightening book "Experts Speak," which documents that people from all political stripes have made predictions over the years that ultimately turned out to be wrong. Second, Dr. Helen Caldicott, a pediatrician by training, has never worked for the Union of Concerned Scientists. She was associated with the Physicians for Social Responsibility for a number of years.
-- Elliott Negin, Union of Concerned Scientists

Hoist them by their own collective petard.

Well, jadegold, you may be right that there are weaknesses in the accuracy in interpretation of the quotes. But when you call Linkola a right-winger (based solely on his admiration for nazis, perhaps?)

As to Elizabeth Whelan, she is routinely dismissed as a paid industry shill. I searched through the first 100 google hits in vain to find any refutations of her claims however. People who receive money from a source do indeed raise red flags about their objectivity - but in the research biz, everyone receives money from someone with one agenda or another, so funding is not a final determinant.

As to Elizabeth Whelan, she is routinely dismissed as a paid industry shill.

Because she is. Occam's Razor.

Look, the second Google hit provides a link to SourceWatch which paints a pretty damning picture of her. Also, the fact she regularly works with frauds like Steve Milloy and Michael Fumento should be enough evidence.

Likewise, Jade, you're a regular over at Oliver Willis' site, and he's a bought-and-paid-for blogger for Media Matters (his denials to the contrary). Does your ongoing association with such a flagrant blog-whore mean that you're also a puppet of Media Matters, and can be dismissed just as readily?

J.

Of course, Jay ID Tea, I disagree with OW about as much as I agree with him.

The point is that that Whelan attempts to disguise the source of her funding as much as possible. OW, AFAIK, hasn't.

And let's face this hard fact: OW deals in opinion. Whelan claims to deal in "science." For example, she believes PCBs aren't harmful; you can test this by ingesting a fistful.

Oh, that's right. You call me "Jay ID Tea." I thought for the longest time that that was a way of calling me "idiot" until you enlightened me and said that that was a reference to "intelligent design" -- a topic I have never once discussed, let alone ventured an opinion on, but because one of my co-bloggers has mentioned it a few times, I should be forever labeled with it.

Yet another example of you slamming others for "guilt by association."

And it's nice to see you actually cite an EXAMPLE of where you disagree with the lady in question, instead of just smearing her and attempting to discredit her instead of refuting her arguments. You offer not the slightest trace of evidence to back up your charge, but at least this one seems to be based on her actual statements, not her backers. A baby step, but a step in the right direction nonetheless.

Tell me, Jade -- have you EVER made an actual argument based on facts? You know, actually citing evidence and quoting experts, or do you just go through life living by the smear and guilt by association and character association?

Before you answer, Jade, keep in mind that this blog is a considerably classier place than Oliver's or Wizbang -- the hosts (with whom I consider myself on excellent terms -- they graciously hosted me for about a month last year) are far less likely to put up your your usual vitriol, histrionics, and bile.

J.

Well Jadegold is welcome to comment under my posts as long as things don't get too personal, or laden with profanity. And as long as he doesn't bring spam with him. We at WILLisms.com just hate spam.

Will, however, might not be as tolerant.

Jay Tea, you are indeed a good friend of this blog, and thank you for your kind comments.

Jadegold, I'm giving you less benefit of the doubt after that comment. Funding sources are a red flag, but not an argument in themselves. You seem to have reached a conclusion based on that, restated your premise more forcefully without additional evidence, and expect us to be persuaded by the insinuation.

For example, Soros's funding does not make MoveOn.org wrong. It's a red flag, but whether their ideas are any good must always be determined on the basis of the ideas themselves. That you are by your own words persuaded by these impressions rather than the boring data does not reflect well on you. It does explain your tone toward those of us who don't "get it" - that is, have seemingly not picked up the cues of who the smart people are. I remind you again: we do pick up the social cues from left-of-center reporting, we just aren't particularly affected.

Jay ID Tea: Do tell us more about the flagellating tail of bacterium and how this eviscerates Darwin. It beats your constant whining.

AVI: Allow me to repeat myself, slowly, as the point eludes you. Groups like MoveOn or their GOP counterparts deal in opinion and advocacy. None of these groups would blink an eye at admitting they are paid to advance a certain agenda or viewpoint.

OTOH, science-related organizations should go where the science leads them. It's not really science if one arrives at a conclusion beforehand, then attempts to jerry-rig a case for that conclusion.

Let's take a gander at Whelan's group ACSH. Whelan mounted a campaign to declare that PCBs weren't a threat for elevated risks of cancer. Is it a coincidence this campaign coincided with an EPA demand for GE to clean up tons of PCBs they had dumped into the Hudson River? Did I mention GE generously funds ACSH?

Her colleague, Steve Milloy, has long been in the employ of the Tobacco Industry and continues to churn out crap about how smoking isn't really harmful.

Another colleague, Michael Fumento, likes to promote the idea that man-made chemicals aren't really harmful in terms of cancer risk. That is, when he isn't being fired for writing columns praising chemical companies without revealing he is on the chemical company payroll.

Jade, you prove that you are utterly worthless for serious discussion. You open with "Do tell us more about the flagellating tail of bacterium and how this eviscerates Darwin. It beats your constant whining."

Tell you MORE? When the hell did I ever tell you ANYTHING about Darwin and bacterium?

I have never -- NEVER -- written word one about evolution vs. intelligent design, let alone endorsed ID. Never. It simply means nothing to me. But you have fabricated this whole elaborate fantasy that places me as a champion of that cause, and then cavalierly dismiss whatever I say on anything based on your lie.

This isn't a straw man argument. That would be an insult to straw men everywhere. This is the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man of straw men, where you have invented an entire mythology about me and then use it to libel me at every opportunity.

You are beyond a liar. You are beyond a sociopath. You are a full-blown delusional lunatic, spouting your babblings whenever you get the chance.

Don't like what I say, Jade? Prove me wrong. Find a SINGLE posting of mine on Wizbang where I argued in favor of Intelligent Design -- bonus points if you can find one dated from BEFORE you started using that absurd nickname on me. Hell, find a comment I left somewhere defending the theory.

You can't, and you won't even try. I know cowardly vermin like you too well -- you'll just quietly disappear from this thread until the next time our paths cross, and then you'll start it all over again, feigning that this discussion ever took place. Because you have your idee fixe, and you will flout the laws of time and space and common decency and reality to maintain it.

Will, Ken, my apologies for going on at length at this particular fabricating miscreant. I restrained myself enough to forgo the harsh language I wanted to use, but lacked the wherewithal to curb my tongue entirely. But this is an old grievance, one that still has the power to ire me.

J.

No apologies necessary, J.

I said Jadegold was welcome to post here.

I never said he ever earned anyone's actual respect.

Then I will speak more slowly still, jadegold. Your point does not elude me. I consider it false. Just because something is a PR campaign does not mean it is untrue. If dentists pay a PR firm to tell kids to brush their teeth it doesn't make toothbrushing actually bad instead of good. Just because someone hires a lawyer doesn't mean they are guilty.

If your industry is being attacked in public, you had best find skilled people to present your side of things, with the best information possible. Your assumption that people who are paid must therefore be lying is just a convenient way to avoid actually having to construct a logical argument. It's just Bulverism, signifying nothing. It is disquieting to wonder how it is you are so sure that human beings always follow the main advantage, even if it means deceit.

Such substitutes for reasoning also lead nowhere, as all research is funded by someone. There is not some ideal Scienceland where the categories never intrude on each other. It is the checks and balances, the challenges and reformulations, which lead us forward, not the reflexive dismissal of all information from other points of view. It is doubly disquieting that you can so easily wave off information that comes from sources you don't agree with, as it suggests that this is common reasoning practice for you.

Uh..Nazi's are ultraleftists.

I've always wondered who buys those products advertised on late-night TV. You know, the ones where you can lose 20 lbs by simply taking a capsule or the ones where you can learn to by 15 houses without paying a cent?

They probably have AVI on speed dial.

Again, science is not PR. If it were, McDonalds could market its french fries and Big Macs as health food. Or cigarettes could be promoted as "therapeutic"--something the Tobacco Institute once did. Similarly, 'intelligent design'--promoted by Jay ID Tea and Wizbang is based solely on PR and not at all on science.

If we take PCBs as an example, Whelan and her cronies argue PCBs aren't a carcinogen. This contradicts virtually every study on PCBs. Additionally, Whelan neglects to mentions it is known with absolute certainty cause liver damage and other ailments. Why? Because GE is footing the bill.

Similarly, 'intelligent design'--promoted by Jay ID Tea and Wizbang is based solely on PR and not at all on science.

I think I might need to talk to a libel lawyer about this one... repeated accusations, accompanied with contemptuous remarks and utterly false, unsupported by any facts whatsoever and, in fact, verifiably wrong.

This is classic behavior of a cordrazine addict -- the delusional paranoia, the absolute immunity to reality, the delusions of adequacy, the construction of an elaborate fantasy world and insisting that everyone else play along with the fiction...

At one point, Jade might have been an intelligent, productive human being. Pity he/she/it has utterly fried their neurons and destroyed their intellect with their abuse of this powerful drug.

J.

Then we are back to the simplest points, jadegold. Are you able to state accurately what the points you are attempting to refute are? You haven't got mine right yet.

AVI, Jadegold can't even remember that I schooled him/her/it over me and Intelligent Design two months ago, and insists on re-fighting that battle. Do you honestly expect anything better from that vapid, frothing imbecile?

J.

And thus the troll has accomplished his purpose. The thread is thrown into confusion and vituperation. If Jadegold was ever anything but a troll, that time is long past.

AVI: The points are simple enough: you have a group or organization that states it is promoting a 'scientific' viewpoint.

Problem is, science is not subjective or a matter of opinion. You don't get to repeal the laws of physics simply because you're getting paid by a corporation that finds physics inconvenient.

It's like JayIDTea and the intelligent design crew at Wizbang.

I give up. Jade, on the one hand, argues that "no one is entitled to their own facts." Then, one sentence later, argues their own "facts" in flagrant defiance of reality.

Ken, Will, I apologize both for my earlier troll-feeding and what I'm about to say:

Jade, you are an unconscionable waste of skin and oxygen-thief. You alone make me question my own belief in evolution, because I can't imagine how the hell someone so microcephalic, so bile-filled, so screwed up inside that your colon purges through your mouth, survived past infancy.

I think the time has long past when I addressed you directly, and instead simply left the matter up to a libel attorney. And should I decide to pursue the matter, your IP has been logged.

Have a nice life.

J

It's a fascinating exercise, though. Jadegold is under the misapprehension that there are very simple points that we are simply refusing to understand, and with repeated explanation he might drive them home. He doesn't see that his points are well-understood here but distinctions are made that he seemingly cannot fathom. It is as if we were in an argument where he claimed dogs are mammals, therefore mammals are dogs. Whatever refutation is offered, he keeps coming back to the refrain: you stupid people don't understand, dogs are mammals! Well yes, but...

You seem bright enough in some ways, jadegold, so I am uncertain how to put this to you in any pleasant way. We understand what you are saying quite clearly; you are not understanding us, and in that lack lies the arguments. Take the time to consider that you may be missing something rather than leaping to the conclusion that it is everyone else who has not picked up the thread.

AVI: It isn't so much that I'm trying to make you understand as I am merely pointing out the absurdity of your position.

And I understand that position; essentially you believe science is, and should be, a matter of opinion. An opinion which can be bought and sold in the marketplace just as a sportswriter might argue the merits of the designated hitter rule.

Then you have not understood what I said, as I suspected.

AVI, nothing -- NOTHING -- can penetrate Jadegold's fantasy world, where everyone else is wrong and lying and corrupt and stupid and Jade is the only person who is honest and intelligent. Attempting to explain to Jade such complex concepts as "up is up" and "down is down" is an utter waste of time, as all it does is move you from the "ignorant person to be educated by your better" category to the "lying, corrupt swine that can be dismissed" group.

To Jade, reality itself is the enemy, and must be avoided or fought off at all costs.

J.

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